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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  February 11, 2014 7:00pm-8:01pm PST

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chemical that was supposed to be long gone now. it was long gone in the school last week but is back now. how is that? west virginia, you do know how to throw a tuesday. at this rate, who knows what's going to happen in this story next. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. thanks for being with us tonight. have a great night. chris christie went chicago today to tell some rich people something that all of them can relate to. that his problems are all his staff's fault. >> the last six weeks haven't been the most enjoyable of my life. >> chris christie is in chicago. >> christie is hoping that things will blow over now that he's in the windy city. >> republicans are running for the hills. >> even when he hits the road -- >> his third out of state trip since bridgegate began. >> christie remains a very effective rga fundraising. >> in spite of the scandal. >> but he can't leave behind questions about the bridge scandal. >> i'm shocked you brought that up.
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>> this isn't going away for him. >> i don't think it will curtail a second-term agenda. h. >> he's optimistic he can regain his agenda. >> some stranded in the traffic jam demanding his signatures. >> 14,000 signatures saying governor christie must resign. >> it's virtually impossible to see him getting anything done now in the near term. >> 18 more subpoenas. >> we have several investigations going on right now. >> this is a story that's going to be decided by the evidence. >> this investigation is going to go on for a while. >> it is no wonder governor chris christie is getting out of town. >> a god awful winter that i wish would end. chris christie hit the road once again today for the republican governor's association, this time traveling to chicago. but unlike his recent trips to florida and texas, chris christie did not hide from the
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cameras all day. he had a luncheon chat with the very well heeled crowd at the economic club of chicago and got a big burst of applause for saying brave things like this -- >> we balanced our budget without raising income taxes, sale taxes, corporate business tax or any other tax in new jersey. and i'm proud to say that four years later, we still haven't raised taxes. >> okay, so you get who that crowd is. every question was a softball, including the one about the george washington bridge scandal, which, of course didn't use the word scandal. >> is the gw bridge situation impact your ability to execute your priorities for the state. >> i'm shocked you brought that up.
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>> the gw bridge situation. well, it's never going to get easier than that for chris christie. here's the relevant portion of his very wordy answer to that question in which he, of course, blames those terrible people who were working for him. he did not mention that those terrible people were hired by him. >> some people who worked for me made some skignificant mistakes in judgment. and when you're the leader of that organization and you're confronted with that, the first thing that happens to you, what happened to me, was extraordinary disappointment. extraordinary disappointment that people that i had trusted had made such bad judgments and had not told the truth. but you only have a few minutes to wallow in that disappointment. and then if you're a leard, you have to try to get a handle on the story and take decisive action, which we did by letting people go and talking to the public about it. >> of course, if something like that happened to the companies run by many of the leaders in
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that room, some of them would actually ask the people who did the bad things why they did those bad things before they fired them. but not chris christie. here's chris christie discussing what has always been one of his favorite subjects -- how heroic he was in the aftermath of hurricane sandy. >> so when i was yelling and screaming about sandy aid in january of 2013, both at the other party and at my own, it wasn't because, you know, i needed a few extra bucks to balance the budget. it's because every dollar that we've been shorted will have an impact on the lives of the people of my state. and as governor, your job is to fight for those people as hard as you can. >> now, of course, christie knows that he's talking to an audience that knows nothing about what he's talking about. that's his specialty as a public speaker. that's how he became known as a good public speaker because he
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works best to audiences who do not know what he's talking about. he was talking to an audience that did not know that he helped funnel $6 million in federal hurricane sandy money to a senior center in bellville, new jersey, a police that suffered no damage. there's chris christie, talking to the rich people of chicago about hurricane sandy and saying every dollar we've been shorted will have an impact on the lives of people of my state. every dollar we've been shorted. real new jersey language. and that audience doesn't know that he personally shorted $6 million from the people in his state who deserve hurricane sandy money, and directed it to a place that suffered no damage. now, only one of the four republican candidates running for governor in illinois attended any of chris christie's events there today, and politico reports that another
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gubernatorial candidate requested a private meeting with christie, the no-cameras kind president ted strictland, the former governor of ohio said this about the christie tour. >> he's continuing to travel around the country as the rga chair to raise money for candidates who seem to refuse to be seen or photographed with him. will governor christie listen? will he realize that with every state he visits, republicans are running for the hills. who knows. but what we do know is that there was a culture in christie's office where a type of petty and dangerous political retribution was acceptable. >> joy reid, chris christie went semi public today. >> he did. >> as the republican governors association leader. but that event that was public
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was not a republican governors association event, just to be clear. >> right. it sounded a little bit like the mitt romney event down in boca raton where he admitted the 47%. he's with like minded people. he's sticking with the pre bridgegate and selling that outside of new jersey. and the people who were seen with him today, who was not ashamed to be around chris christie today, bill brady who chris christie -- he's hoping to, should he get the nomination, get the support of the rga, he's sitting at about 20% of the polls. the other guy is a hedge fund guy or a venture capitalist, a very wealthy well heeled guy. 40% of the polls. way ahead. he did a private meeting with christie. he really had nothing to lose, but he's also way ahead. so it's actually safe for him to do it. the only one who kind of took a risk is the state senator who actually showed up at event. >> david corn, in the land of
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rob blagojevich, these politicians are not all -- they don't feel publicly safe in the company of chris christie. >> right. in chicago they're used to hanging with people who -- >> exactly. what could be the problem?
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what chris christie doesn't want is to go viral. his whole persona is based on the idea that he's beloved across party lines. that a democrat who stands up at a meeting would thank him for getting sandy aid. but the other problem of the narrative now is when you talk about every dollar of sandy aid helping people of new jersey, forget the scandal, what about the commercials? did those television commercials featuring the christie family, how did that help new jersey? on top of the bridgegate stuff.
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what david said is actually quite, either frightening or hopeful for christie. because we still have a number of republican governors races coming up for which the rga, and he's still raising lots of money, lots of big ticket races. you think about those guys in illinois, they're competing with wisconsin and michigan and florida. so big races. they still want the rga money. so you sort of have to hold him at arm's length, but if he stays in place and the investigation drags on until november, you still need him to raise money for you. >> the interesting thing about the town hall meeting if it comes to pass -- >> and the only thing that could derail is it a big snowstorm coming as well. >> or it could be derailed also by chris christie. because, you know, his weapon of choice in these sorts of situations in the past when he's been challenged is to call people idiots and to drown them out and to be dismisive and really to in public to really try to shame and shun. and he can't do that anymore.
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so he has to find a way to get back to that sort of bold straight talking guy while saying things that don't make sense while also playing the victim card, which we saw there. it was about his feeling. he felt disappointed. oh, but i'm not going to wallow. not chris christie, i don't do wallow. it's about how he felt betrayed. not how he didn't get to the bottom of this. or the question the executive from motorola did not get to is why did these people do this. and why did the e-mail chain read as if it's not about that. >> no one asked them anything before they resigned. >> joy reid, when does your 2:00 p.m. start? >> the 24th of this very month. >> any minute now. >> joy reid, david corn, thank you very much. coming up, a little more on the christie investigation with one
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of the reporters who broke the story wide open last month. and once again, president obama crushes john boehner. this time on the debt ceiling. and later, karl rove tells rand paul that his new attacks on bill and hillary clinton are a very bad idea. some time?
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the next time you rent a dvd, don't bother rewinding it. the way i see it, it's the next guy's problem.
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>> we're in the midst of an internal review now. and whatever that internal review discloses we'll release to the public and whatever action i need to take i'll take it. but i don't think it will curtail for the long haul a second-term agenda because i think the public in new jersey won't tolerate it. >> that was chris christie today in chicago talking about the lawyer h of run investigation he has launched in his office about what happened at the george washington bridge. christie hired a team of very expensive lawyers to do this at taxpayer expense after himself refusing to ask people who he knows were involved in the scandal a single question about it. christie famously fired bridget anne kelly without speaking to her. she was the first person christie should have spoken to after her e-mail time for some traffic problems in ft. lee but he didn't. and his deliberate choice not to speak to bridget kelly lost him that opportunity of solving all or most of the mystery at the
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george washington bridge instantaneously. in his press conference on the subject, chris christie gave this reason for not speaking to her. >> well, i certainly wouldn't tamper with a witness, but i could be accused of tampering with the witness. >> chris christie is no longer concerned about being accused of tamp er with witnesses by conducting his own investigation. an investigation that thus far we know to be targeted not at anyone who has been fired by chris christie in this scandal or is still working for chris christie, but we do know that the investigation is aimed at don zimmer, the mayor of hoboken who has made what the "star ledger" newspaper has called a credible charge of extortion against the christie administration. this morn, one of the new york times reporters work on the story said this about team christie. >> he wants a private meeting for don zimmer.
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i think what their message is they're trying to sort of threaten people. you know, not explicitly, but saying you know, we're going to go back after you if you come after us. this is their strategy. i think this is part of that strategy. >> team christie then of course, sent out an e-mail attacking "the new york times" and that reporter. and as we learned on the rachel mad dou maddow show tonight, there's a common thread with the 18 new subpoenas. the committee is looking for information on who helped draft the story for the former deputy executive director of the port authority bill baroni when he said this during his november 25 testimony before the new jersey state legislature. >> who told them to put the cones snout.
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>> on september 5, mr. wildstein requested a one-week study be condu conducted. and then that began -- it was conducted the following week and that began that monday morning. and the bridge folks and the port authority police department began putting the cones out. and as opposed to creating a three-lane special lane for ft. lee, it was a one-lane special lane. >> joining me now from "the bergen record" is the reporter who broke the story that there was messages linking the christie administration and the port authority's close shurt of the lanes at the norj washington bridge. it is amazing to see where this story has unravelled since those e-mails. here chris christie was, don't want to do any investigation inside the office. people will think that's witness tampering. now he's hired a team to do what he said he didn't want to do,
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parentally not worried about people thinking this might be trying to intimidate witnesses as "the new york times" report suggested. >> the question is what is the real intent of the investigation. is it to get to the bottom of this? this was first described as an internal review. the first indication this is going beyond and outied of christie's office was a request to talk to hoboken's mayor. is than an attempt to intimidate? christie would say no. >> and to demand a request. all of the communication between that mayor and "the new york times," of all things. >> i think it's fair to ask whether dawn zimmer turned over the documents while accusing christie of what amounts to potentially wrong doing. that's a reasonable question to ask. and i think most people would
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say, it's likely that they knew she was going to turn us over. so what's the true intent of this letter. >> now here's this internal investigation, they've dpot a lieutenant governor who's accused by this mayor of having basically participated in an extortion move, and there's no indication whatsoever is there inside christie's own investigation that they're questioning the lieutenant governor about that. >> i asked randy about this myself repeatedly. and his response is with we're not going to talk about the internal review that we're conducting. now there's an interesting distinction to be drawn here about what we know about the legislative investigation and the one being conducted by christie's office. you see that we have an idea of who's subpoenaed and we're getting, you know, some news about what is being sought, what kind of information is sought. we don't have that same level of information with the internal review. >> i was really struck by that set of subpoenas. when it went to the lawyer at the port authority, fill kwan
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who assisted bill baroni in that testimony we just saw, talking about the traffic study that did not exist. when i saw that one going out on this program last night, i said that may be one of the most if not the most important new subpoenas that's out there. >> right. and here the intent is to find out whether phil kwan knew the true motive behind these lane closures. it's not disputed that he coached bill baroni before he went before the legislature and gave questionable testimony about this being a traffic stud is di. to what extent did he know the political motivations? i think that's going to be a line of inquire pursued. and if they can get phil kwan to answer some questions in person, i think you're going to see a lot of interest in those answers. >> yeah. i mean, that's one of the real centers of how this story managed to go off in the direction it went off in. with chris christie to this day still clinging to the traffic
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study that no one can produce. >> yeah. and remember, it's not just phil kwan. there are also questions about whether bill baroni had any interaction with people within christie's inner circle before they went before the joint legislative committee. and furthered this theory of a traffic study. we have some indication in e-mails and internal e-mails that there was communication. to what extent did the governor's office know the true reasons behind this. >> police are saying the helicopter did not fly over the bridge during the traffic jam, the governor's helicopter, but again, there's an indication that the interest there is not so much in the route of flight, but who was on the helicopter, who might he have been talking to while on the helicopter. all that is still being developed. thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate you coming across the river for this. thank you very much. >> coming up next, house speaker john boehner has become ted cruz's worst nightmare.
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so ted cruz says. but of course, this is much better for the country. ezra klein will join me. and karl rove thinks rand paul's attacks on the clinton, not a good idea. can i help you? hey, is it true we can get four lines, unlimited talk and text and 10 gigs of data to share for 160 a month? yep. at&t's new family pricing. that's 100 bucks cheaper than us. i know. are you guys with verizon? what makes you think that? oh. just her nametag. and i see you guys at the food court every day. can we go back now? yeah. [ male announcer ] introducing our best-ever pricing for families.
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>> i commend speaker boehner for doing the right thing. i hope this common sense approach will continue throughout the year so we can actually get some things done. >> in the spotlight tonight, john boehner does the right
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thing. after president obama crushed him on the debt ceiling. a few hours ago, the house of representatives passed a clean, no-strings-attached old fashion kind of increase to the debt ceiling by a vote of 221-201. republicans abandoned several plans to attach other items to the debt ceiling, and only 28 republicans voted for this bill. "the washington post's" robert costa peeled curtain back on how this all came together at a private republican breakfast this morning at the capitol hill club. boehner's delivery was crisp, his decision was final, there were no outcries or boos. a few members whispered to each other that boehner was right. that due to conservative opposition to any hike, he was cornered. but they didn't speak up or clap. boehner shook his head then turned to the nearly mute crowd and wondered allowed why he wasn't getting applause. i'm getting this monkey off your
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back and you're not going to even clap? boehner asked. scowling playfully at some tea party favorites. later, speaker boehner admitted that president obama won this round because boehner and the house republicans had nothing. that's his word, nothing. they didn't have a strategy. and they dependent have the votes. >> you didn't have the political leverage to fight the president on? >> no, it's the fact that we didn't have 218 votes. if we don't have 218 votes, you have nothing. we've seen that before. we'll see it again. >> joining me now is msnbc policy analyst ezra klein. he's also building a new news site at vox media. ezra, so john boehner did the right thing. let's give the guy credit. >> sure. i think it's worth saying, we're doing nothing for the unemployed, we're doing nothing about climate change. we're celebrating that the
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majority party in the house of representatives put forward no votes but did not actually block the debt ceiling increase that would have mutt the global economy into a global tail spin. not only did john boehner do the right thing, he's also right about the politics. something you're seeing here is the weakening of the conservative wing of the republican party in the house and a strengthening of john boehner after the disastrous shutdown earlier in the year, earlier last year. and the other thing i think you're seeing here, which is actually kind of interesting is the degree to which boehner is now using sort of the conservatives in the house as sort of a vehicle to get his way. his argument is because they won't let him pass anything that makes conservatives happy, he'll just pass whatever he wants instead. that's a bit of political jiu-jitsu there. >> i for one thinks boehner has handled this exactly right all the way through. he always thought he was going
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to end up here. let's try to attach this and that. and they can't even get on a consensus in their closed-door meetings. he shows them that they can't. i mean, this has been done in muchless bumpy ways by speakers, you know, for ages. there's nothing new in that process. now, in the senate, we have word from ted cruz tonight, ezra about how he's going to greet this. he says under no circumstances will i skoent to the debt ceiling being raised with only a 50-vote threshold. i think senate republicans should stand united and insist upon a 60-vote threshold, and that is my intention. that has wrongly been reported by some people as a filibuster threat. that is just a kind of standard procedure threat. >> i suspect we'll see many of those press releases from ted cruz going forward. but this is exactly the situation ted cruz wants to be in. he wants to be in a situation where he can stand as a lone sort of conservative holdout against the sellout republicans in washington. but he does not ever want to be in the position that he got put
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in during the shutdown of anybody actually taking his advice and executing on that strategic plan that makes the american people hate the republican party then makes the republicans blame him for it. this position where he can just say no but there's no consequence to him saying no is an ideal situation for him as he builds towards 2016. >> ezra, thanks very much for joining us tonight. coming up, who can blame bill o'reilly for not understanding that there was no scandal at the irs? i don't know, i might. that's next in "the rewrite." (meow mix jingle) right on cue.
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>> in the united states senate, this happened. >> ayes are 90, the nays are 8 and the nomination is confirmed. >> tonight, senate majority leard harry reid working with minority leader mitch mcconnell, yes, working together, got more than 90 votes for three more of president obama's nominations. the senate voted 92-6 to vote in the assistant secretary of state
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and 97-1 for sarah sewall as undersecretary of state. and 90-8 for rick stengle. you've probably seen him as a familiar guest on this network. he will be in charge of cultural affairs efforts, educational exchange programs and confronting the ideological support for terrorism overseas. eight republican senators, including john mccain voted against rick stengel's nomination about saying a word about it. so we don't know why republican senators don't want someone at the state department who is trying to undermine the ideological support for terrorism around the world. "the rewrite" is next. ition. open to bold ideas. that's why new york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state.
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>> what some people are saying is that the irs was used at a local level in cincinnati, maybe other places -- >> absolutely wrong. >> how do you know that? we don't know what happened there. >> we do -- that's not what happened. folks again have had multiple hearings on this. these kinds of things keep on surfacing in part because you and your tv station will promote them. but -- >> aren't there unanswered questions? >> bill, when you look at the stuff, there's been multiple hearings on it. you have a 501 c4 law people think is confusing that folks did not know how to implement. >> poor bill o'reilly. could not understand a word of what president obama was saying and like everyone else at fox news and most people in the political news media, bill
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o'reilly has never read the 501-c4 law. as many of you know, this is a program where we actually read the 501-c4 law when we discuss it. so bear with me for one more reading which defines eligible tax exempt organizations in that category as civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit, but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare. the language of that law is 100 years old, but in 1959 in what was a completely undetected scandal at the irs, the republican president dwight eisenhower's irs chief council decided to simply change the word exclusively to primarily. and he did this through a new instruction for irs agents and tax filers on 501-c4 that suddenly said organizations filing under 501-c4 had to be
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primarily operated for the promotion of social welfare, not exclusively. just primarily. the obama administration may have learned of this change for the first time from this program on may 13 of last year. because as of that time, no one in the white house or the irs or congress had noticed or mentioned the words of the law and how the words of the 1913 law conflict with the words of the 1959 irs guideline. the law is, of course, the law. written by congress and signed by the president. and the guideline, the regulation, is just a guideline. the obama administration now recognized the huge conflict between the law and the regulation and so they have suggested changes to make the regulation more understandable. under the obama version of the guideline, they would still
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mistakenly allow the word primarily to define how much social welfare activity a 501-c4 would have to engage in. but the regulation would go on to try to define the kinds of political activity that would prevent an organization from getting 501-c4 status. and to define what kinds of political activity a 501-c4, exactly how much of it they could engage in. republicans fear any change in the regulation, since the regulation has allowed republicans and other political operators to wildly abuse 501-c4 law. and so in the house ways and means committee, the republican chairman introduced a bill today that would, quote, prohibit the internal revenue service from modifying the standard for determining whether that -- whether an organization that has operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare for purposes of section 501-c4 of the internal revenue code. the funny thing about this republican bill is that it does
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not want 501-c4s to be operated according to the law. and that word exclusively. the republican bill is an attempt to preserve the scandalous change in the regulation that occurred in 1959, which was made in the political dark of night when no one knew about it. today, the chairman of the ways and means committee said this -- >> the rationale of the irs and treasury is that the rules that have been in place for more than 50 years created confusion. >> notice that the chairman doesn't say that the -- refers only to the rule that's been in place for 50 years. the rule. the guideline. he didn't say law. the law has been in place for 100 years. why don't we just enforce the law word for word? there is not one republican on waits and means committee who wants to enforce the law word for word.
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what their bill does is simply prevent the obama administration from changing the regulation on 501-c4's in any way for the next year. this bill passed the ways and means committee today. it can easily pass in the house of representatives but it has virtually no chance of passing in the united states senate or being signed by the president. and so the obama administration will probably proceed in rewriting the irs regulation for 501-c4's and that will only very slightly improve the government's ability to clean up the political abuse that occurs within 501-c4 organizations. but the only change that is actually needed in the irs regulation is the complete era zu re of that regulation. even the obah. ma version will remain in stark conflict with the law as written. the obamaed eadministration sho
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simply be proposing the 501-c4 law be enforce following the precise written intent of the congress. not the written intent of president eisenhower's forgotten irs chief counsel who completely changed the meaning of the law without legal authority. and the republicans in the house of representatives who began this congress with their phony readings from the constitution on the house floor to demonstrate their fidelity to every word of the constitution as written should demonstrate their fidelity to every word of 501-c4 law as written by congress 100 years ago. and their position should simply be enforce the law. at least one democrat gets this. congressman lloyd doggett of texas. >> i believe that were t-- wher the internal re knew service got off was a long time ago when it
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defined exclusively social welfare organizations under the statute to be primarily. and it changed the original intent of the statute. i think the irs should treat social welfare organizations as just that, social welfare and not engaged in politics. >> it is possible that not a single republican on the ways and means committee understood what lloyd doggett said today when he said that. and it is absolutely certain that bill o'reilly didn't understand because bill o'reilly didn't even hear it because listening to congressional hearings on 501-c4's, that ain't the waybill o'reilly spends his day. the obama administration is still taking comments from the public and any interested parties about how to change the administration regulation covering 501-c4's. they have received 23,000 comments and suggestions so far. you can join the comment party by going to regulations.gov. here is what i'm going to do at regulations.gov. i'm going to tell the government
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something you wouldn't think you would have to tell them the government to do. enforce the law as written. words have meaning, exclusively does not mean primarily. exclusively is what the law passed by the congress and signed by president wood rrow wilson says. everyone who voted on that law and president wilson understood what the word exclusively means. the law they passed was a good law. a clear law. not even slightly confusing. and it was supremely easy to enforce for 50 years until an unelected bureaucrat changed it without legal authority. it is time to simply enforce the law. ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you outlive your money?
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>> oh, sorry, just looking for my name here on the clinton's enemy list in the new bio about hillary clinton. let's see, obama, o'malley. great, i'm not on the list. n kns your car's health depends on a full, complete checkup. the works. because when it comes to feeling safe behind the wheel, going the distance and saving at the pump you want it all. get our multi-point inspection with a a synthetic blend oil change, tire rotation, brake inspection and more for $29.95 or less. get a complete vehicle checkup. only at your ford dealer.
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[ chicken caws ] [ male announcer ] when your favorite food starts a fight, fight back fast with tums. heartburn relief that neutralizes acid on contact and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! i can download anything i want. [ girl ] seriously? that's a lot of music. seriously. that's insane. and it's 15 bucks a month for the family. seriously? that's a lot of gold rope. seriously, that's a signature look. you don't have a signature look, honey. ♪ that's a signature look. [ male announcer ] only at&t brings you beats music. unlimited downloads for up to 5 accounts and 10 devices all for $14.99 a month. ♪ >> we know how rand paul will run against hillary clinton if the republicans make the mistake of nominating him for president.
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>> rand paul is out there. he's bang on the clintons every day. now what's his strategy? >> well, i'm not sure that he has a strategy. somebody said why are you doing this? he said because people keep asking me about it. and frankly, rand paul spending a lot of time talking about the mistakes of bill clip ton does not look like a big agenda for the future of the country. i they've got to strengthen their skills to get ready for it. i'm not sure beating up on bill clinton and monica lewinsky is a good thing to strengthen your skills for 2016. >> we now know even more about how hillary clinton will run her presidential campaign, thanks to this new biography "hrc -- state secrets and the rebirth of hillary clinton." joining pe now the authors of that book. jonathan, i saw you on tv the other day saying something i've been saying for, i don't know, a long time. hillary clinton is running for
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president. let's stop this talk about if she runs for president and if she makes the big decision. there's a presidential campaign that's under way that she is running brilliantly at this point. >> yeah. i stole that line from you. >> there's just no mystery here. >> no, of course, politicians are always running for the next thing. they might decide at some point not to. >> in the case of chris christie, it might end up that he stops his presidential campaign, but he had a presidential campaign going. >> she's no different. since 20088, she's been thinking about what's the next move, how do you get back into the game? if you look at the things she did at the state department, she continued to court donors and businesses. she tried to turn the state department's role in commerce overseas into something that could get her involved in businesses. she had businesses donating to various charitable things the state department was trying to do. she built a tech team at state. she got beat by obama in
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technology. now she understands it's a fundraising tool, messaging tool and organizing tool to use social media. she did a lot of that at state, hired scores of people to do that kind of people. she has been building and building and building her operation, whether it was something in the cam '08, the state department or the '16 campaign and really since the end of the clinton presidency. >> the clintons have always been running the next campaign. i mean, even immediately after inauguration as governor, inauguration as president the first time, there's always been the next campaign. >> you talked about the hit list before that. they're all looking back to look ahead. i think that's the key with them. we talk about the hit list and people say why is that relevant for 2016? it is. because they're always constantly looking and planning and saying who was with us, who was against us. i think that plays out in 2016. >> what does karl rove know about hillary clinton that rand paul doesn't seem to know? >> i think he remembers the
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midterm elections of 1998 after imimpeachment and democrats picking up ground. >> there's that. >> in the house of representatives. and he looks at bill clinton's approval ratings right now after the monica lewinsky scandals and he realizes hillary clinton wasn't the one to blame. man, that's a really bad strategy on somebody you could attack for any number of things. >> is hillary clinton ready for what we know are the attack points? apparently rand paul is going to do attack points on the scandal stuff. but they're all going to do attack points on benghazi. >> right. and also health care. we point that out in the book. you're seeing republicans kind of seize that as an issue. they want her fingerprints all over it. they were saying she was actually involved. we have a scene in the book mao she was supporting the president on health care. and now you're seeing republicans and all these groups around them saying look, she was. she was involved. so that's an argument that you're going to see in the future in the coming months. >> and benghazi, republican are
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promising, we talked about t ee. they said benghazi ads, get used to them. >> if you want to talk about old news, there's nothing as a policy the first lady is more attached to for a longer period for her public career than health care. this is -- i mean, wouldn't you think this is built into the polling that already exists on her? that people know she was the original, you know, person preobama trying to push this kind of plan. >> i think that's why she didn't want her fingerprints on it publicly. she did this kind of behind the scenes in meetings. she told the president you have my support, how's it going? she was talking to ram emanuel a lot about it. and she was talking to other aids about it along the way. and she was even convincing lawmakers to go along with it. >> but from the state department, what should she have possibly done or said about health care? that would have been quite odd hearing something about the secretary of state from it.
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>> the early '90s, you're the expert on this stuff, on health care reform back then. given what she had done back then, anything she had done publicly on obamacare among democrats let alone republicans, as secretary of state, she has no role in domestic policy. she tried to stay above the fray for her own political good and for the good of doing that job. but i think there were a few sm small areas. we go into detail in the book, there were a few point where is she was able to involve herself. and as amy said, talking to some of the president's aides about her experiences back in 1993 and 1998. there was a pivotal cabinet meeting in september of 2009 where a lot of cabinet members were starting to get angry about what was going on with health care. and she said look, we've got to do this now. >> so we have an excerpt on our website about the -- it's from the book. it's about what part of the
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book? it. >> it's about health care, the cabinet meeting and what she did in terms of talking to other law make percent . >> that's great. thank you very much for joining us tonight. uh up next, steve good evening from new york. i'm steve kornacki in tonight for chris hayes. we have breaking news from washington, d.c. where the republican-controlled

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